My first reaction was "Wow! God is powerfully active in our churches." I still believe that. But I was prompted to look into the proposed (and subsequently accepted) social statement. 45-minutes later I offer the following:
~It is a complex issue. I appreciate the way it is summarized on pages 1-5 of the "Report and Recommendation on Ministry Policies From the Task Force on ELCA Studies on Sexuality." (I'd link it but don't know how to link a pdf.) ~There are some interesting comments on the ELCA's blog about this event (the approval of the social statement). http://blogs.elca.org/assembly/2009/08/19/social-statement-plenary/#comments ~I looked to see if I could find any discussion of the tornado on the ELCA site and found this http://blogs.elca.org/assembly/2009/08/19/churchwide-assembly-weathers-a-storm/ ~I'm going to see if I can post your original link, Pat, in the comments for the ELCA's blog on the tornado...
Very interesting indeed! I hate comments though. I mean, the ones on that page. Sites like that were people just argue and aruge like foolish morons, on and on they go. Give it up! (Not you Pat, good article, just venting a little.)
“I speak these … words in deep humility, with a heavy heart and no desire whatsoever to offend. The decisions by this assembly to grant non-celibate homosexual ministers the privilege of serving as rostered leaders in the ELCA and the affirmation of same-gender unions as pleasing to God will undoubtedly cause additional stress and disharmony within the ELCA. It will also negatively affect the relationships between our two church bodies.” “The current division between our churches threatens to become a chasm,” he continued. “This grieves my heart and the hearts of all in the ELCA, the LCMS, and other Christian church bodies throughout the world who do not see these decisions as compatible with the Word of God, or in agreement with the consensus of 2,000 years of Christian theological affirmation regarding what Scripture teaches about human sexuality. Simply stated, this matter is fundamentally related to significant differences in how we understand the authority of Holy Scripture and the interpretation of God’s revealed and infallible Word." -Rev. Gerald B. Kieschnick President of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (LCMS)
I started reading the comments following the original article and got sucked in for 15 minutes at least... and I didn't find it edifying.
My initial thoughts were in support of what Piper wrote. Until the end, he doesn't *actually* connect the tornado with the the meeting.
All of his points, 1-6, I believe are true. I especially appreciated his reference to the tower of Siloam, which I've pondered as I've read it before. Jesus talks about the recent event of a tower falling and killing some people, and speaks to a popular thought, that those people deserved it. They were worse sinners, perhaps, and God's judgement was dished out. But Jesus doesn't say, "no, these things just happen sometimes." He doesn't give a reason for it. He says, "unless you repent, you will likewise perish." Don't think you escaped because you are more holy. He turns it back to them, and tells them to repent.
Piper's conclusion is appropriate, I believe: "The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin."
Did God send the tornado specifically to target the ELCA? I don't know. I wouldn't go as far as Matt, that it was "obviously just a coincidence." Who knows? Maybe there were people of God praying for the ELCA, for God to disrupt the proceedings, or for God to not abandon his people but to bring truth to the meeting, or to warn people and not leave them in their sins. Maybe God acted in response to the prayers of his saints (whatever they were) or simply for his own reasons. God is sovereign. He can, and I believe would, send a tornado with purpose.
Andrea, I looked a little bit at the links you posted, and skimmed through the social statement "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust." I found it difficult to determine quickly their position on homosexuality, so whether they are actually "approving sin" or allowing practicing homosexuals to be ministers I don't know. I didn't find much to object to (it all sounds so good! I would have to study it very carefully to determine how much I agree with it). I noticed that they stated matters on which they were not unified, particularly whether or not a homosexual "marriage" should be supported. On page 18, they say that "on the basis of conscious-bound belief, some are convinced that..." and then list four different positions. So they don't have a particular social statement on those matters, just that they are divided and that Christians of each position should be respected.
My first reaction was "Wow! God is powerfully active in our churches." I still believe that. But I was prompted to look into the proposed (and subsequently accepted) social statement. 45-minutes later I offer the following:
ReplyDelete~It is a complex issue. I appreciate the way it is summarized on pages 1-5 of the "Report and Recommendation on Ministry Policies From the Task Force on ELCA Studies on Sexuality." (I'd link it but don't know how to link a pdf.)
~There are some interesting comments on the ELCA's blog about this event (the approval of the social statement). http://blogs.elca.org/assembly/2009/08/19/social-statement-plenary/#comments
~I looked to see if I could find any discussion of the tornado on the ELCA site and found this http://blogs.elca.org/assembly/2009/08/19/churchwide-assembly-weathers-a-storm/
~I'm going to see if I can post your original link, Pat, in the comments for the ELCA's blog on the tornado...
E-GADS. That is totally amazing. Obviously just a coincidence, though.
ReplyDeleteVery interesting indeed! I hate comments though. I mean, the ones on that page. Sites like that were people just argue and aruge like foolish morons, on and on they go. Give it up! (Not you Pat, good article, just venting a little.)
ReplyDelete“I speak these … words in deep humility, with a heavy heart and no desire whatsoever to offend. The decisions by this assembly to grant non-celibate homosexual ministers the privilege of serving as rostered leaders in the ELCA and the affirmation of same-gender unions as pleasing to God will undoubtedly cause additional stress and disharmony within the ELCA. It will also negatively affect the relationships between our two church bodies.”
ReplyDelete“The current division between our churches threatens to become a chasm,” he continued. “This grieves my heart and the hearts of all in the ELCA, the LCMS, and other Christian church bodies throughout the world who do not see these decisions as compatible with the Word of God, or in agreement with the consensus of 2,000 years of Christian theological affirmation regarding what Scripture teaches about human sexuality. Simply stated, this matter is fundamentally related to significant differences in how we understand the authority of Holy Scripture and the interpretation of God’s revealed and infallible Word."
-Rev. Gerald B. Kieschnick President of The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod (LCMS)
I started reading the comments following the original article and got sucked in for 15 minutes at least... and I didn't find it edifying.
ReplyDeleteMy initial thoughts were in support of what Piper wrote. Until the end, he doesn't *actually* connect the tornado with the the meeting.
All of his points, 1-6, I believe are true. I especially appreciated his reference to the tower of Siloam, which I've pondered as I've read it before. Jesus talks about the recent event of a tower falling and killing some people, and speaks to a popular thought, that those people deserved it. They were worse sinners, perhaps, and God's judgement was dished out. But Jesus doesn't say, "no, these things just happen sometimes." He doesn't give a reason for it. He says, "unless you repent, you will likewise perish." Don't think you escaped because you are more holy. He turns it back to them, and tells them to repent.
Piper's conclusion is appropriate, I believe:
"The tornado in Minneapolis was a gentle but firm warning to the ELCA and all of us: Turn from the approval of sin."
Did God send the tornado specifically to target the ELCA? I don't know. I wouldn't go as far as Matt, that it was "obviously just a coincidence." Who knows? Maybe there were people of God praying for the ELCA, for God to disrupt the proceedings, or for God to not abandon his people but to bring truth to the meeting, or to warn people and not leave them in their sins. Maybe God acted in response to the prayers of his saints (whatever they were) or simply for his own reasons. God is sovereign. He can, and I believe would, send a tornado with purpose.
Andrea, I looked a little bit at the links you posted, and skimmed through the social statement "Human Sexuality: Gift and Trust." I found it difficult to determine quickly their position on homosexuality, so whether they are actually "approving sin" or allowing practicing homosexuals to be ministers I don't know. I didn't find much to object to (it all sounds so good! I would have to study it very carefully to determine how much I agree with it). I noticed that they stated matters on which they were not unified, particularly whether or not a homosexual "marriage" should be supported. On page 18, they say that "on the basis of conscious-bound belief, some are convinced that..." and then list four different positions. So they don't have a particular social statement on those matters, just that they are divided and that Christians of each position should be respected.